#245: John O'Brien (CEO of EDUCAUSE) on AI slop, the future of the CIO, and skipping the messy middle

Recorded live at EDUCAUSE 2026 in Denver, host Joe Toste sits down with John O'Brien, President and CEO of EDUCAUSE, and Mark Roman, Managing Partner for Education at Info-Tech Research Group. Together, they explore the shifting landscape of higher education IT, the evolving role of the CIO, and how institutions must adapt as knowledge becomes a commodity in the age of artificial intelligence.

The conversation dives deep into the concept of the messy middle of learning—the critical process of struggle and internalization that AI tools allow students to bypass. John warns of a potential digital divide where elite experiences remain high-touch and human, while others are left with automated AI slop. To counter this, they advocate for institutions to lead with their core values and focus on humanics, empathy, and creativity.

Looking to the future, John and Mark discuss how the CIO role is transitioning from managing plumbing to driving institutional strategy, with some CIOs elevating to broader roles like Vice President of Strategic Services. John also reflects on his proudest achievements at EDUCAUSE, including broadening the association's community and empowering young professionals to become future board leaders.

Key takeaways

• The value of higher education is shifting from a knowledge economy to a caring economy that prioritizes humanics, empathy, and creative thinking.
• AI allows students to skip the messy middle of learning, making it crucial for educators to design experiences that encourage deep internalization rather than just quick answers.
• The role of the CIO has evolved from a technical gatekeeper to a strategic storyteller, with many transitioning into broader executive roles like COO or VP of Strategic Services.
• There is a risk of a new digital divide where premium, high-human experiences are reserved for the elite, while others receive automated AI-driven alternatives.
• Leading with core values and practicing kindness are essential strategies for technology leaders navigating today's high-stress, polarized environments.

Highlights

• 2:55 — The true value of the college experience
• 5:50 — Teaching at a higher level of abstraction with Bloom's taxonomy
• 11:40 — Avoiding the shortcut: AI and the messy middle of learning
• 14:20 — Predicting the next decade for the CIO role
• 17:05 — The threat of a high-human versus AI slop digital divide
• 25:30 — An appeal to kindness and leading with core values

00:00:00 Intro to John O'Brien and Mark Roman
00:02:55 College Isn't About the Knowledge
00:05:50 Moving Up Bloom's Taxonomy
00:10:40 Earning a Seat at the Table
00:11:40 Skipping the Messy Middle
00:14:20 The Future of the CIO
00:17:05 The AI Slop Divide
00:18:50 What John Is Proudest Of
00:21:00 From Young Professional to Board Chair
00:25:30 An Appeal to Kindness
00:25:45 Promoted, Still Doing the Old Job
00:26:35 Start With Values

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creative<00:03:22.400> and<00:03:22.560> the<00:03:22.800> reason<00:03:22.959> that's<00:03:23.280> all<00:03:23.440> so<00:03:23.680> interesting<00:03:24.159> now<00:03:24.400> is<00:03:24.640> because<00:03:24.959> those<00:03:25.280> are<00:03:25.440> all<00:03:26.480> also<00:03:26.879> the<00:03:27.200> skills<00:03:27.440> that<00:03:27.680> are<00:03:27.840> going<00:03:27.920> to<00:03:28.000> be<00:03:28.080> critical<00:03:28.480> in<00:03:28.720> everywhere<00:03:29.280> world

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right<00:03:30.133> <00:03:30.587> so<00:03:31.040> Tomorrow,<00:03:31.493> Paul<00:03:31.947> LeBlanc<00:03:32.400> will<00:03:32.853> be<00:03:33.307> doing<00:03:33.760> a<00:03:34.213> fireside<00:03:34.667> chat<00:03:35.120> with<00:03:35.573> me,<00:03:36.027> interviewing<00:03:36.480> him.

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And<00:03:36.959> there's<00:03:37.200> a<00:03:38.159> rockstar<00:03:38.959> president<00:03:39.440> who<00:03:39.680> has<00:03:39.920> really<00:03:40.159> taken<00:03:40.560> institutions,<00:03:41.360> transformed<00:03:42.000> them<00:03:42.640> using<00:03:43.040> technology,<00:03:43.680> and<00:03:43.920> just<00:03:44.080> wrote<00:03:44.239> a<00:03:44.400> book<00:03:44.560> on<00:03:44.720> AI.

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And<00:03:45.280> his<00:03:45.519> book<00:03:45.760> is<00:03:46.239> makes<00:03:46.560> the<00:03:46.799> argument<00:03:47.120> that<00:03:47.680> along<00:03:48.000> the<00:03:48.159> lines<00:03:48.319> of<00:03:48.400> your<00:03:48.640> question<00:03:48.879> that<00:03:49.200> universities<00:03:49.920> business<00:03:50.319> is<00:03:50.560> changing<00:03:51.040> from<00:03:51.440> I<00:03:51.680> think<00:03:51.760> he<00:03:52.000> says<00:03:52.159> from<00:03:52.560> epistemology

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to<00:03:54.754> ontology.<00:03:55.269> So<00:03:55.784> from<00:03:56.299> knowing<00:03:56.814> knowledge<00:03:57.329> in<00:03:57.844> person<00:03:58.360> to<00:03:58.875> being<00:03:59.390> and<00:03:59.905> that<00:04:00.420> the<00:04:00.935> <00:04:01.450> universities<00:04:01.965> are<00:04:02.480> need

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to<00:04:02.959> move<00:04:03.200> from<00:04:03.519> a<00:04:04.560> knowledge<00:04:04.959> economy<00:04:05.599> to<00:04:05.920> a<00:04:06.480> caring<00:04:06.879> economy<00:04:07.439> he<00:04:07.599> says<00:04:07.840> where<00:04:08.080> we<00:04:08.720> accent<00:04:09.280> empathy<00:04:09.760> and<00:04:10.159> creativity<00:04:10.799> and

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all<00:04:11.465> of<00:04:11.891> those<00:04:12.316> and<00:04:12.741> actually<00:04:13.166> long<00:04:13.592> before<00:04:14.017> generative<00:04:14.442> AI<00:04:14.867> Joseph<00:04:15.293> Aoun<00:04:15.718> the<00:04:16.143> president<00:04:16.568> of<00:04:16.994> Northeastern<00:04:17.419> wrote<00:04:17.844> a<00:04:18.269> book<00:04:18.695> called<00:04:19.120> Robot-Proof

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that<00:04:19.600> got<00:04:19.759> a<00:04:19.919> lot<00:04:20.000> of<00:04:20.160> mileage<00:04:21.199> and<00:04:21.759> his<00:04:22.079> argument<00:04:22.639> was<00:04:23.680> AI<00:04:24.160> is<00:04:24.400> coming<00:04:24.880> because<00:04:25.040> this<00:04:25.520> 2018<00:04:26.080> before<00:04:26.880> Gen<00:04:27.199> AI<00:04:27.840> said

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AI<00:04:28.320> is<00:04:28.479> coming.<00:04:29.199> It's<00:04:29.520> going<00:04:29.680> to<00:04:29.840> take<00:04:30.080> jobs.

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It's<00:04:30.960> going<00:04:31.040> to<00:04:31.199> change<00:04:31.520> everything.<00:04:32.479> And<00:04:32.720> but<00:04:32.960> he<00:04:33.280> said<00:04:34.160> the<00:04:34.479> curriculum<00:04:34.960> needs<00:04:35.199> to<00:04:35.440> create<00:04:36.240> a<00:04:36.560> new<00:04:36.720> focus<00:04:37.040> on<00:04:37.280> what<00:04:37.440> he<00:04:37.600> calls<00:04:38.000> humanics.

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And<00:04:39.759> guess<00:04:40.000> what<00:04:40.160> that<00:04:40.320> is?<00:04:40.800> Creativity.<00:04:41.919> But<00:04:42.080> the<00:04:42.560> English<00:04:42.960> majors<00:04:43.600> we<00:04:43.840> rise<00:04:44.160> again.

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Yeah.<00:04:44.863> So,<00:04:45.087> <00:04:45.311> and<00:04:45.535> Ed<00:04:45.760> Clark<00:04:45.984> is<00:04:46.208> an<00:04:46.432> English<00:04:46.656> major,<00:04:46.880> too.

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<00:04:47.512> There's<00:04:47.826> You<00:04:48.139> cannot<00:04:48.453> swing<00:04:48.766> a<00:04:49.080> stick<00:04:49.393> without<00:04:49.706> hitting<00:04:50.020> an<00:04:50.333> English<00:04:50.647> major<00:04:50.960> here.

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It's<00:04:51.569> all<00:04:51.778> pretty<00:04:51.988> good.<00:04:52.197> <00:04:52.406> And<00:04:52.615> my<00:04:52.825> friend<00:04:53.034> Josh<00:04:53.243> Bry<00:04:53.452> is<00:04:53.662> a<00:04:53.871> philosophy<00:04:54.080> major.

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The<00:04:54.560> two<00:04:54.639> of<00:04:54.800> them<00:04:54.880> actually<00:04:55.120> came<00:04:55.199> on<00:04:55.440> together.<00:04:55.840> And<00:04:56.080> I<00:04:56.240> love<00:04:56.320> that<00:04:56.479> you<00:04:56.639> mentioned<00:04:56.880> community<00:04:57.120> colleges.

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Just<00:04:57.759> had<00:04:58.000> on,<00:04:58.720> I<00:04:58.880> don't<00:04:58.960> know,<00:04:59.199> 30<00:04:59.440> minutes<00:04:59.600> ago,<00:05:00.080> 40<00:05:00.320> minutes<00:05:00.560> ago.

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Dan<00:05:01.360> Watkins,<00:05:02.000> a<00:05:02.160> friend<00:05:02.320> of<00:05:02.400> mine<00:05:02.639> from<00:05:02.800> Santa<00:05:03.040> Barbara,<00:05:03.759> manages<00:05:04.479> had<00:05:04.720> managed<00:05:04.960> the<00:05:05.199> Ventura<00:05:05.840> Community<00:05:06.240> College<00:05:06.880> and<00:05:07.120> just<00:05:07.280> got<00:05:07.440> a<00:05:07.680> new<00:05:07.840> job<00:05:08.080> a<00:05:08.320> week<00:05:08.400> ago<00:05:08.639> at<00:05:08.880> the

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LA<00:05:09.440> Community<00:05:09.759> College<00:05:10.080> District.<00:05:10.400> So,<00:05:10.479> he's<00:05:10.639> got<00:05:10.800> a<00:05:11.039> big<00:05:11.280> new<00:05:11.440> role<00:05:11.759> and<00:05:12.160> honored<00:05:12.479> to<00:05:12.639> unpack<00:05:12.960> that.

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I'd<00:05:13.680> love<00:05:13.759> to<00:05:13.919> hear<00:05:14.080> your<00:05:14.240> insights,<00:05:14.880> too,<00:05:15.280> on<00:05:15.440> this.

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So,<00:05:15.840> I'm<00:05:16.000> not<00:05:16.080> an<00:05:16.240> English<00:05:16.479> major,<00:05:16.720> so<00:05:16.880> I<00:05:17.039> could<00:05:17.120> be<00:05:17.280> in<00:05:17.360> trouble<00:05:17.600> here.

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<00:05:18.095> Well,<00:05:18.271> you<00:05:18.447> were<00:05:18.623> a<00:05:18.799> history<00:05:18.976> major,<00:05:19.152> weren't<00:05:19.328> you?<00:05:19.504> <00:05:19.680> Nah.

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Nah,<00:05:21.039> I'm<00:05:21.360> a<00:05:21.680> history.<00:05:22.080> as<00:05:22.320> I<00:05:22.560> slide<00:05:22.800> my<00:05:23.039> chair.

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<00:05:25.117> I<00:05:25.434> I<00:05:25.751> view<00:05:26.068> it<00:05:26.384> as<00:05:26.701> we're<00:05:27.018> going<00:05:27.335> to<00:05:27.652> have<00:05:27.969> to<00:05:28.286> introduce<00:05:28.603> all<00:05:28.920> kinds<00:05:29.236> of<00:05:29.553> change<00:05:29.870> to<00:05:30.187> understand<00:05:30.504> how<00:05:30.821> we<00:05:31.138> have<00:05:31.455> some<00:05:31.771> deliver<00:05:32.088> some<00:05:32.405> value<00:05:32.722> in<00:05:33.039> the

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economy.<00:05:34.240> So<00:05:34.880> we<00:05:35.120> used<00:05:35.440> to<00:05:35.759> have<00:05:36.000> the<00:05:36.240> scarce<00:05:36.639> resource<00:05:37.280> right<00:05:38.080> since<00:05:38.160> the<00:05:38.320> time<00:05:38.479> of<00:05:38.639> Socrates<00:05:39.280> the<00:05:39.440> value<00:05:39.680> of<00:05:39.919> education<00:05:40.400> was<00:05:41.120> wrestling<00:05:41.600> with

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this<00:05:42.000> scarce<00:05:42.960> dollars<00:05:43.520> and<00:05:43.600> as<00:05:43.840> it<00:05:43.919> becomes<00:05:44.240> a<00:05:44.400> commodity<00:05:45.520> does<00:05:45.759> it<00:05:45.919> require<00:05:46.479> us<00:05:46.800> to<00:05:47.120> rethink<00:05:47.680> how<00:05:48.000> we<00:05:48.240> deliver<00:05:48.639> value?

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And<00:05:49.039> of<00:05:49.120> course<00:05:49.280> all<00:05:49.440> the<00:05:49.680> social<00:05:49.919> pieces<00:05:50.400> and<00:05:50.560> all<00:05:50.639> that<00:05:50.800> I<00:05:50.960> agree<00:05:51.199> with<00:05:51.440> all<00:05:51.600> of<00:05:51.680> that.

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I<00:05:52.639> think<00:05:52.720> the<00:05:52.960> other<00:05:53.199> piece<00:05:53.759> is<00:05:54.400> you<00:05:54.639> need<00:05:54.800> to<00:05:54.960> teach<00:05:55.280> at<00:05:55.440> a<00:05:55.600> higher<00:05:55.919> level<00:05:56.160> of<00:05:56.320> abstraction<00:05:57.120> we're<00:05:57.360> going<00:05:57.520> to<00:05:57.680> deliver<00:05:58.080> value<00:05:58.639> right<00:05:58.880> so<00:05:59.199> the<00:05:59.360> old<00:05:59.600> way<00:06:00.240> or<00:06:00.639> any

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level<00:06:02.080> lower<00:06:02.400> levels<00:06:02.800> Bloom's<00:06:03.199> taxonomy<00:06:04.479> not<00:06:04.720> going<00:06:04.880> to<00:06:05.039> deliver<00:06:05.520> a<00:06:05.840> lot<00:06:06.000> of<00:06:06.160> value<00:06:06.479> in<00:06:06.560> any<00:06:07.440> means<00:06:07.759> we<00:06:07.919> need<00:06:08.080> to<00:06:08.240> think<00:06:08.400> about<00:06:08.560> how<00:06:08.800> we<00:06:08.960> use<00:06:09.199> AI

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to<00:06:09.840> teach<00:06:10.080> at<00:06:10.240> a<00:06:10.400> higher<00:06:10.639> level<00:06:10.880> of<00:06:11.039> abstraction<00:06:11.600> whether<00:06:11.840> it's<00:06:12.000> using<00:06:12.240> AI<00:06:12.880> flip<00:06:13.199> class<00:06:14.080> or<00:06:14.319> whatever<00:06:15.039> and<00:06:15.199> as<00:06:15.440> we<00:06:15.600> move<00:06:15.840> up<00:06:16.080> Bloom's<00:06:16.560> taxonomy<00:06:17.199> teach<00:06:17.440> at<00:06:17.600> a

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higher<00:06:17.919> level<00:06:18.080> of<00:06:18.240> abstraction<00:06:18.800> we<00:06:18.960> deliver<00:06:19.280> more<00:06:19.520> value<00:06:20.160> but<00:06:20.479> two<00:06:20.639> problems<00:06:21.039> emerge<00:06:21.440> one<00:06:22.080> It<00:06:22.319> means<00:06:23.199> people<00:06:23.919> change.

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We<00:06:25.588> all<00:06:25.895> know<00:06:26.203> how<00:06:26.511> much<00:06:26.818> they<00:06:27.126> like<00:06:27.434> change<00:06:27.742> and<00:06:28.049> teaching<00:06:28.357> at<00:06:28.665> a<00:06:28.972> higher<00:06:29.280> level<00:06:29.588> of<00:06:29.895> abstraction<00:06:30.203> is<00:06:30.511> chartered<00:06:30.818> work<00:06:31.126> <00:06:31.434> and<00:06:31.742> so<00:06:32.049> you're<00:06:32.357> asking<00:06:32.665> people<00:06:32.972> who<00:06:33.280> don't

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like<00:06:33.680> change<00:06:34.479> and<00:06:35.120> do<00:06:36.000> charter<00:06:36.560> things.

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I<00:06:37.722> think<00:06:38.084> that's<00:06:38.446> going<00:06:38.808> to<00:06:39.171> be<00:06:39.533> a<00:06:39.895> non-trivial<00:06:40.257> change<00:06:40.619> in<00:06:40.981> the<00:06:41.343> education<00:06:41.705> system<00:06:42.067> <00:06:42.429> top<00:06:42.792> to<00:06:43.154> bottom<00:06:43.516> K<00:06:43.878> to<00:06:44.240> 12.

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<00:06:44.713> Yeah,<00:06:44.948> that's<00:06:45.182> not<00:06:45.416> the<00:06:45.650> first<00:06:45.885> person<00:06:46.119> to<00:06:46.353> point<00:06:46.588> out<00:06:46.822> change<00:06:47.056> management<00:06:47.290> is<00:06:47.525> a<00:06:47.759> thing.

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Yeah,<00:06:48.960> it's<00:06:49.280> just<00:06:49.440> it's<00:06:49.759> really<00:06:50.000> quite<00:06:50.400> quite<00:06:50.720> remarkable<00:06:51.280> how<00:06:51.520> we're<00:06:51.840> coping<00:06:52.080> with<00:06:52.240> it<00:06:52.400> and<00:06:52.639> how<00:06:52.800> it<00:06:52.960> hits<00:06:53.440> individual<00:06:54.080> sectors<00:06:54.960> very<00:06:55.280> differently.

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The<00:06:56.160> why<00:06:56.400> your<00:06:56.639> question<00:06:56.960> just<00:06:57.280> was<00:06:57.520> so<00:06:57.680> many<00:06:58.240> Yeah,<00:06:58.560> but<00:06:58.960> yeah,<00:06:59.199> but<00:06:59.520> yeah,<00:06:59.840> but<00:07:00.800> higher<00:07:01.039> ed<00:07:01.360> doesn't<00:07:01.599> like<00:07:01.759> to<00:07:01.919> think<00:07:02.080> of<00:07:03.280> ourselves<00:07:03.840> selling<00:07:04.080> a

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commodity.<00:07:04.663> One<00:07:05.006> of<00:07:05.350> my<00:07:05.693> favorite<00:07:06.037> EDUCAUSE<00:07:06.381> Review<00:07:06.724> articles<00:07:07.068> was<00:07:07.411> Higher<00:07:07.755> Education<00:07:08.098> is<00:07:08.442> Not<00:07:08.786> a<00:07:09.129> Business<00:07:09.473> and<00:07:09.816> Other<00:07:10.160> Myths.

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But<00:07:11.120> that<00:07:11.360> idea<00:07:11.599> that<00:07:11.840> we're<00:07:12.080> not<00:07:12.240> selling<00:07:12.479> anything<00:07:13.280> that<00:07:13.520> it<00:07:13.840> the<00:07:14.240> question<00:07:14.560> begs<00:07:14.960> the<00:07:15.199> question<00:07:15.599> like<00:07:16.560> what<00:07:16.720> does<00:07:16.880> higher<00:07:17.199> ed<00:07:17.440> think<00:07:17.599> it's<00:07:17.840> doing?

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And<00:07:18.400> I<00:07:18.560> think<00:07:19.199> we<00:07:19.440> don't<00:07:19.680> I<00:07:20.000> don't<00:07:20.080> think<00:07:20.240> we<00:07:20.479> fundamentally<00:07:21.039> believe<00:07:21.280> we're<00:07:21.520> selling<00:07:21.759> a<00:07:22.000> commodity.

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I<00:07:22.960> think<00:07:23.039> we<00:07:23.280> believe<00:07:23.520> we're<00:07:23.840> changing<00:07:24.240> lives.

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But<00:07:25.084> <00:07:25.447> yeah,<00:07:25.811> <00:07:26.175> so<00:07:26.538> what<00:07:26.902> that<00:07:27.265> mission<00:07:27.629> <00:07:27.993> that's<00:07:28.356> the<00:07:28.720> most<00:07:29.084> important<00:07:29.447> piece<00:07:29.811> that<00:07:30.175> I<00:07:30.538> think<00:07:30.902> and<00:07:31.265> I<00:07:31.629> had<00:07:31.993> Amy<00:07:32.356> McLaughlin<00:07:32.720> she's

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so<00:07:33.120> great<00:07:33.440> CIO<00:07:34.000> University<00:07:34.319> of<00:07:34.560> Wyoming<00:07:35.120> who<00:07:35.360> I<00:07:35.680> just<00:07:36.000> found<00:07:36.319> out<00:07:36.720> was<00:07:37.039> good<00:07:37.280> friends<00:07:37.520> with<00:07:37.759> my<00:07:38.000> friend<00:07:38.240> Andrea<00:07:38.720> Ballinger<00:07:39.280> who<00:07:39.440> was<00:07:39.520> at<00:07:39.680> Oregon<00:07:40.000> State<00:07:40.240> and<00:07:40.479> now<00:07:40.720> moved.

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It<00:07:41.513> is<00:07:41.665> such<00:07:41.818> a<00:07:41.971> small<00:07:42.123> world<00:07:42.276> <00:07:42.428> a<00:07:42.581> small<00:07:42.734> world<00:07:42.886> after<00:07:43.039> all.

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We<00:07:47.039> got<00:07:47.120> these<00:07:47.360> great<00:07:47.599> projects.<00:07:48.319> I<00:07:48.560> need<00:07:48.720> to<00:07:48.960> be<00:07:49.199> the<00:07:49.520> chief<00:07:49.919> storyteller<00:07:51.280> even<00:07:51.520> as<00:07:51.759> the<00:07:51.919> CIO."

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And<00:07:52.664> I<00:07:53.010> was<00:07:53.355> like<00:07:53.700> really<00:07:54.045> like<00:07:54.391> <00:07:54.736> actually<00:07:55.081> we've<00:07:55.426> been<00:07:55.772> talking<00:07:56.117> about<00:07:56.462> a<00:07:56.807> version<00:07:57.153> of<00:07:57.498> that<00:07:57.843> for<00:07:58.188> a<00:07:58.534> long<00:07:58.879> time.

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the<00:07:59.919> integrative<00:08:00.720> CIO.<00:08:01.360> Remember<00:08:01.599> that?

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I<00:08:02.302> think<00:08:02.604> you've<00:08:02.907> even<00:08:03.209> written<00:08:03.511> some<00:08:03.813> might<00:08:04.116> have<00:08:04.418> done<00:08:04.720> <00:08:05.022> I<00:08:05.324> feel<00:08:05.627> like<00:08:05.929> you<00:08:06.231> have<00:08:06.533> but<00:08:06.836> literally<00:08:07.138> since<00:08:07.440> gosh<00:08:07.742> 2017<00:08:08.044> I'll<00:08:08.347> say<00:08:08.649> I<00:08:08.951> can't<00:08:09.253> do<00:08:09.556> time<00:08:09.858> anymore<00:08:10.160> so

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I<00:08:10.616> just<00:08:10.913> make<00:08:11.210> up<00:08:11.508> numbers<00:08:11.805> but<00:08:12.102> <00:08:12.399> like<00:08:12.696> for<00:08:12.993> quite<00:08:13.290> a<00:08:13.588> while<00:08:13.885> we<00:08:14.182> really<00:08:14.479> EDUCAUSE

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amounted<00:08:23.840> to<00:08:24.080> just<00:08:24.479> basically<00:08:24.960> saying<00:08:25.280> no<00:08:25.440> to<00:08:25.680> things<00:08:26.080> and<00:08:26.479> and<00:08:27.039> keeping<00:08:27.440> the<00:08:27.599> the<00:08:28.000> plumbing<00:08:28.479> working<00:08:28.879> and<00:08:29.520> which<00:08:29.759> nobody<00:08:30.160> appreciated<00:08:30.639> until<00:08:30.960> it<00:08:31.199> stopped<00:08:31.520> working

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and<00:08:31.919> then<00:08:32.080> suddenly<00:08:32.880> but<00:08:33.680> we<00:08:34.000> told<00:08:34.240> the<00:08:34.479> story<00:08:34.640> that<00:08:35.279> being<00:08:35.519> a<00:08:35.680> CIO<00:08:36.159> is<00:08:36.560> totally<00:08:37.039> different.

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It<00:08:37.680> requires<00:08:38.719> storytelling.<00:08:39.519> It<00:08:39.680> requires<00:08:40.800> connecting<00:08:41.279> in<00:08:41.519> ways<00:08:41.839> with<00:08:42.240> across<00:08:42.640> the<00:08:42.880> organization.

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And<00:08:44.480> the<00:08:44.720> good<00:08:44.880> news<00:08:45.040> and<00:08:45.279> the<00:08:45.519> kind<00:08:45.600> of<00:08:45.760> exciting<00:08:46.080> thing<00:08:46.240> as<00:08:46.480> I<00:08:46.720> think<00:08:46.880> about<00:08:47.279> retiring<00:08:47.920> is<00:08:48.160> that<00:08:49.040> I<00:08:49.279> feel<00:08:49.440> like<00:08:49.680> we've<00:08:50.399> fully<00:08:50.720> realized<00:08:51.120> that<00:08:51.440> now.

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able<00:09:00.640> to<00:09:00.800> work<00:09:01.200> academic

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affairs,<00:09:04.389> work<00:09:04.939> with<00:09:05.489> faculty,<00:09:06.039> work<00:09:06.589> with<00:09:07.139> research<00:09:07.689> and<00:09:08.240> so<00:09:08.790> <00:09:09.340> no<00:09:09.890> longer<00:09:10.440> the<00:09:10.990> CIO<00:09:11.540> storyteller<00:09:12.090> and<00:09:12.640> a

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CIO<00:09:13.440> sees<00:09:13.839> everything<00:09:14.399> sees<00:09:14.720> how<00:09:14.959> I<00:09:15.760> whether<00:09:16.320> it<00:09:16.560> be<00:09:16.640> an<00:09:16.880> alumni<00:09:17.360> system<00:09:17.839> and<00:09:17.920> an<00:09:18.080> HR<00:09:18.480> system<00:09:19.360> teaching<00:09:19.680> and<00:09:19.920> learning<00:09:20.240> technologies.

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So<00:09:21.519> the<00:09:21.680> CIO<00:09:22.240> sees<00:09:22.560> everything<00:09:23.519> and<00:09:23.760> as<00:09:24.080> AI<00:09:24.560> starts<00:09:24.880> to<00:09:25.120> permeate<00:09:26.320> change<00:09:26.720> pedagogy<00:09:27.360> and<00:09:27.519> change<00:09:27.839> how<00:09:28.240> research<00:09:29.519> come

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technology<00:09:30.560> based<00:09:30.880> enterprise<00:09:31.680> a<00:09:31.920> great<00:09:32.160> opportunity<00:09:32.800> for<00:09:33.120> CIO<00:09:34.080> grass<00:09:34.800> grass<00:09:36.080> and<00:09:36.560> elevate<00:09:37.040> the<00:09:37.200> role<00:09:37.440> of<00:09:37.600> CIO<00:09:38.160> to

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chief<00:09:38.720> operating<00:09:39.519> it's<00:09:39.760> happening.<00:09:40.399> So<00:09:40.640> we<00:09:40.880> have<00:09:41.120> two<00:09:41.600> two<00:09:41.920> members<00:09:42.160> of<00:09:42.320> our<00:09:42.560> board<00:09:42.880> and<00:09:43.040> our<00:09:43.279> board's<00:09:43.600> only<00:09:43.839> 12<00:09:44.640> 12<00:09:45.040> people<00:09:45.839> and<00:09:46.399> two<00:09:46.640> of

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them<00:09:47.040> are<00:09:47.600> were<00:09:48.000> CIOs<00:09:48.560> and<00:09:48.800> now<00:09:49.040> are<00:09:49.839> vice<00:09:50.160> presidents<00:09:50.720> of<00:09:51.600> strategy<00:09:52.320> or<00:09:52.640> vice<00:09:52.959> presidents<00:09:53.519> of<00:09:54.080> they're<00:09:54.399> seeing<00:09:54.640> the<00:09:54.880> CIO

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because<00:09:55.760> CIOs<00:09:56.320> know<00:09:56.480> how<00:09:56.640> to<00:09:56.720> do<00:09:56.959> stuff.

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They<00:09:57.600> know<00:09:57.839> how<00:09:58.000> to<00:09:58.560> tell<00:09:58.880> stories.

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They<00:09:59.680> know<00:09:59.839> how<00:10:00.000> to<00:10:00.080> work<00:10:00.240> with<00:10:00.640> senior<00:10:00.959> leadership.

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They<00:10:01.680> know<00:10:01.760> how<00:10:01.920> to<00:10:02.000> listen<00:10:02.240> to<00:10:02.480> students.<00:10:03.360> So<00:10:03.760> when<00:10:04.000> people<00:10:04.240> are<00:10:04.399> wondering,<00:10:04.800> hey,<00:10:05.040> who<00:10:05.200> are<00:10:05.360> we<00:10:05.519> going<00:10:05.600> to<00:10:05.680> get<00:10:05.920> to<00:10:06.480> to<00:10:07.200> lead?

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<00:10:13.648> No,<00:10:13.936> we<00:10:14.224> don't<00:10:14.512> do<00:10:14.800> no<00:10:15.088> but<00:10:15.376> just<00:10:15.664> to<00:10:15.952> say<00:10:16.240> it<00:10:16.528> it's<00:10:16.816> quite<00:10:17.104> exciting<00:10:17.392> to<00:10:17.680> see<00:10:17.968> how<00:10:18.256> the<00:10:18.544> role<00:10:18.832> has<00:10:19.120> changed.

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I<00:10:19.760> mean<00:10:20.240> originally<00:10:21.440> we<00:10:21.760> when<00:10:22.000> I<00:10:22.240> first<00:10:22.560> arrived<00:10:22.880> at<00:10:23.040> EDUCAUSE<00:10:23.680> we<00:10:24.000> complained<00:10:24.480> a<00:10:24.640> lot<00:10:24.800> about<00:10:25.600> how<00:10:26.079> relatively<00:10:26.720> few<00:10:26.959> presidents<00:10:27.519> reported

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or<00:10:28.537> CIOs<00:10:28.914> reported<00:10:29.291> to<00:10:29.669> the<00:10:30.046> president<00:10:30.423> relatively<00:10:30.800> how<00:10:31.177> few<00:10:31.554> <00:10:31.931> CIOs<00:10:32.309> were<00:10:32.686> on<00:10:33.063> the<00:10:33.440> cabinet.

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And<00:10:34.880> when<00:10:35.120> I<00:10:35.360> would<00:10:35.600> talk<00:10:35.839> to<00:10:36.000> presidents,<00:10:36.560> I<00:10:36.720> would<00:10:36.880> say,<00:10:37.200> "Shame<00:10:37.600> on<00:10:37.839> you<00:10:38.399> for<00:10:38.640> not<00:10:38.959> listening<00:10:39.279> to<00:10:39.519> your<00:10:39.680> CIOs."

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I<00:10:40.560> talk<00:10:40.720> to<00:10:40.880> CIOs<00:10:41.360> and<00:10:41.519> I'd<00:10:41.680> say,<00:10:41.920> "You<00:10:42.320> need<00:10:42.480> to<00:10:42.640> earn<00:10:43.279> the<00:10:43.519> right<00:10:43.760> to<00:10:43.920> be<00:10:44.079> at<00:10:44.240> that<00:10:44.399> table."

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And<00:10:45.120> then<00:10:45.440> CO<00:10:45.839> came.<00:10:46.160> I<00:10:46.399> don't<00:10:46.560> take<00:10:46.720> credit<00:10:47.040> for<00:10:47.839> EDUCAUSE

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how<00:10:55.600> critical<00:10:56.480> what<00:10:56.800> that<00:10:57.839> it<00:10:58.240> is<00:10:58.480> not<00:10:58.640> a<00:10:58.959> plumbing,<00:10:59.440> it's<00:10:59.680> a<00:10:59.839> strategic<00:11:00.320> asset.

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And<00:11:01.040> yeah,<00:11:01.360> and<00:11:01.600> now<00:11:01.760> it's<00:11:02.079> how<00:11:02.320> do<00:11:02.399> you<00:11:02.560> stay<00:11:02.720> at<00:11:02.880> the<00:11:03.120> table?

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And<00:11:03.663> that's<00:11:03.966> a<00:11:04.269> different<00:11:04.571> conversation.<00:11:04.874> <00:11:05.177> But<00:11:05.480> you<00:11:05.783> can't<00:11:06.086> knock<00:11:06.389> on<00:11:06.691> the<00:11:06.994> door<00:11:07.297> after<00:11:07.600> indirect.

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We've<00:11:08.394> tied<00:11:08.628> it<00:11:08.862> in<00:11:09.095> <00:11:09.329> by<00:11:09.563> the<00:11:09.797> way<00:11:10.031> you<00:11:10.265> conduct<00:11:10.498> yourself<00:11:10.732> and<00:11:10.966> carry<00:11:11.200> yourself.

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And<00:11:11.895> <00:11:12.191> we<00:11:12.486> I<00:11:12.782> realize<00:11:13.077> now<00:11:13.372> we've<00:11:13.668> just<00:11:13.963> strayed<00:11:14.258> so<00:11:14.554> far<00:11:14.849> off<00:11:15.145> your<00:11:15.440> topic.

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But<00:11:16.370> [laughter]<00:11:16.901> sorry,<00:11:17.432> Joe.<00:11:17.963> But<00:11:18.494> Heather<00:11:19.025> McGlaughlin<00:11:19.556> today<00:11:20.087> at<00:11:20.618> was<00:11:21.149> that<00:11:21.680> yesterday?

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Yesterday.<00:11:22.672> I<00:11:22.864> need<00:11:23.056> a<00:11:23.248> vacation.<00:11:23.440> What<00:11:23.631> are<00:11:23.823> they<00:11:24.015> going<00:11:24.207> to<00:11:24.399> do?

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What<00:11:25.120> are<00:11:25.200> they<00:11:25.279> going<00:11:25.360> to<00:11:25.440> do?<00:11:25.600> Fire<00:11:25.839> me?<00:11:26.399> Her<00:11:26.640> keynote.

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She<00:11:27.279> had<00:11:27.440> so<00:11:27.600> many<00:11:27.680> good<00:11:27.920> slides,<00:11:28.240> but<00:11:28.399> the<00:11:28.640> one<00:11:28.720> I<00:11:28.959> really<00:11:29.120> liked<00:11:29.360> was<00:11:30.079> it<00:11:30.320> talked<00:11:30.560> about<00:11:30.880> learning<00:11:31.600> and<00:11:32.560> student<00:11:32.880> learning<00:11:33.200> was<00:11:33.920> moving<00:11:34.240> left<00:11:34.480> to<00:11:34.720> right<00:11:34.959> and<00:11:35.600> left

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was<00:11:36.160> just<00:11:36.399> squiggly<00:11:36.959> lines<00:11:37.360> like<00:11:37.600> this<00:11:37.760> and<00:11:37.920> then<00:11:38.079> it<00:11:38.320> gradually<00:11:38.800> got<00:11:39.040> to<00:11:39.440> a<00:11:40.079> single<00:11:40.480> line.

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You<00:11:41.440> you've<00:11:41.839> understood<00:11:42.320> the<00:11:42.560> problem<00:11:42.800> and<00:11:43.040> you've<00:11:43.279> reached<00:11:43.600> a<00:11:43.760> conclusion.

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And<00:11:44.720> what<00:11:44.880> she<00:11:45.120> pointed<00:11:45.360> out<00:11:45.519> is<00:11:45.760> that<00:11:46.240> AI<00:11:46.720> just<00:11:47.120> allows<00:11:47.440> you<00:11:47.600> to<00:11:48.000> jump<00:11:48.320> to<00:11:48.560> the<00:11:49.440> solution<00:11:50.000> and<00:11:50.640> missing<00:11:51.040> the<00:11:51.360> whole<00:11:51.839> messy<00:11:52.399> middle<00:11:52.800> which

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we<00:11:53.279> call<00:11:53.519> learning.<00:11:54.399> And<00:11:54.640> so<00:11:54.800> that's<00:11:55.120> that.

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So<00:11:55.600> your<00:11:55.839> question<00:11:56.000> about<00:11:56.320> is<00:11:56.720> information<00:11:57.279> or<00:11:57.600> knowledge<00:11:58.079> the<00:11:58.640> commodity<00:11:59.200> the<00:11:59.519> main<00:11:59.760> thing<00:12:00.000> we're<00:12:00.240> doing<00:12:00.399> at<00:12:00.640> a<00:12:00.880> university.

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If<00:12:01.839> that's<00:12:02.079> true<00:12:02.399> that<00:12:02.560> would<00:12:02.720> be<00:12:02.800> a<00:12:02.959> great<00:12:03.120> shortcut<00:12:04.160> but<00:12:04.399> I<00:12:04.640> don't<00:12:04.720> think<00:12:04.800> it<00:12:05.040> is<00:12:05.200> true.

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I<00:12:05.600> think<00:12:05.680> it's<00:12:05.920> about<00:12:06.160> that<00:12:06.399> middle<00:12:06.959> that<00:12:07.279> is<00:12:07.519> what<00:12:07.760> makes<00:12:08.639> universities<00:12:09.200> and<00:12:09.519> colleges<00:12:10.240> unique<00:12:10.639> and<00:12:10.880> makes<00:12:11.040> the<00:12:11.279> work<00:12:11.440> we<00:12:11.680> do<00:12:12.480> critical.

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If<00:12:13.241> all<00:12:13.523> we<00:12:13.805> needed<00:12:14.087> was<00:12:14.369> answers<00:12:14.651> we<00:12:14.933> have<00:12:15.215> machines<00:12:15.497> for<00:12:15.779> that<00:12:16.060> and<00:12:16.342> we<00:12:16.624> or<00:12:16.906> we<00:12:17.188> will<00:12:17.470> [laughter]<00:12:17.752> we<00:12:18.034> will<00:12:18.316> a<00:12:18.598> lot<00:12:18.880> easier.

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I<00:12:19.440> have<00:12:19.519> a<00:12:19.760> daughter's<00:12:21.200> when<00:12:21.440> she<00:12:21.600> started<00:12:21.920> I<00:12:22.160> said<00:12:22.320> to<00:12:22.480> her<00:12:22.880> why<00:12:22.959> don't<00:12:23.120> use<00:12:23.279> AI<00:12:23.519> to<00:12:23.680> summarize<00:12:24.079> all<00:12:24.240> the<00:12:24.399> material<00:12:26.079> and<00:12:26.240> she<00:12:26.480> said<00:12:26.639> no<00:12:26.959> I<00:12:27.120> really<00:12:27.279> want<00:12:27.440> to

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internalize<00:12:27.930> all<00:12:28.259> really<00:12:28.589> proud<00:12:28.918> of<00:12:29.248> her<00:12:29.577> right<00:12:29.907> it<00:12:30.236> was<00:12:30.566> a<00:12:30.896> proud<00:12:31.225> dad<00:12:31.555> bad<00:12:31.884> moment<00:12:32.214> when<00:12:32.543> she<00:12:32.873> finished<00:12:33.203> it<00:12:33.532> she<00:12:33.862> said<00:12:34.191> I<00:12:34.521> did<00:12:34.850> use<00:12:35.180> AI<00:12:35.509> here<00:12:35.839> it

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was<00:12:36.408> my<00:12:36.816> heming<00:12:37.224> I<00:12:37.632> used<00:12:38.040> AI<00:12:38.448> shorten<00:12:38.856> [laughter]<00:12:39.264> yeah<00:12:39.672> she<00:12:40.080> never<00:12:40.488> sees<00:12:40.896> this<00:12:41.304> podcast<00:12:41.712> [laughter]<00:12:42.120> but<00:12:42.528> she's<00:12:42.936> a<00:12:43.344> very<00:12:43.752> long<00:12:44.160> says

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a<00:12:44.710> lot<00:12:45.020> [laughter]<00:12:45.331> she<00:12:45.642> has<00:12:45.952> complicated<00:12:46.263> ideas<00:12:46.574> thank<00:12:46.884> you<00:12:47.195> and<00:12:47.505> so<00:12:47.816> she<00:12:48.127> needs<00:12:48.437> AI<00:12:48.748> to<00:12:49.059> summarize<00:12:49.369> it,<00:12:49.680> right?

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Yeah.<00:12:50.439> [laughter]<00:12:50.799> So,<00:12:51.159> she<00:12:51.519> still<00:12:51.880> internalized<00:12:52.240> the<00:12:52.600> knowledge<00:12:52.960> and<00:12:53.320> use<00:12:53.680> tools.

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[laughter]<00:12:54.365> I<00:12:54.651> love<00:12:54.937> that.<00:12:55.224> [laughter]<00:12:55.510> And<00:12:55.796> for<00:12:56.082> every<00:12:56.368> dystopian<00:12:56.654> story,<00:12:56.941> there's<00:12:57.227> one<00:12:57.513> like<00:12:57.799> that<00:12:58.085> where<00:12:58.371> it<00:12:58.657> might<00:12:58.944> not<00:12:59.230> destroy<00:12:59.516> humanity<00:12:59.802> and<00:13:00.088> it's<00:13:00.374> actually<00:13:00.661> going<00:13:00.947> to<00:13:01.233> help<00:13:01.519> people

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[laughter]<00:13:02.368> Yeah.<00:13:02.576> [laughter]<00:13:02.784> discover<00:13:02.992> and<00:13:03.200> learn<00:13:03.408> in<00:13:03.616> a<00:13:03.823> different<00:13:04.031> way<00:13:04.239> and<00:13:04.447> [laughter]<00:13:04.655> we<00:13:04.863> become<00:13:05.071> better<00:13:05.279> people.

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[laughter]<00:13:05.884> Yeah,<00:13:06.089> that<00:13:06.293> would<00:13:06.498> be<00:13:06.702> a<00:13:06.907> nice<00:13:07.111> thing.<00:13:07.316> So<00:13:07.520> you<00:13:07.724> said<00:13:07.929> that<00:13:08.133> you<00:13:08.338> might<00:13:08.542> have<00:13:08.747> strayed<00:13:08.951> from<00:13:09.156> the<00:13:09.360> original<00:13:09.564> question,<00:13:09.769> but<00:13:09.973> actually<00:13:10.178> it<00:13:10.382> was<00:13:10.587> one<00:13:10.791> of<00:13:10.996> the<00:13:11.200> questions

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that<00:13:11.760> I<00:13:12.079> believe<00:13:12.399> Ed<00:13:12.639> Clark<00:13:12.959> had<00:13:13.120> asked<00:13:13.279> me<00:13:13.440> that<00:13:13.600> he<00:13:13.760> really<00:13:13.920> wanted<00:13:14.160> to<00:13:14.240> know<00:13:14.320> and<00:13:14.560> you<00:13:14.639> had<00:13:14.800> already<00:13:14.959> answered<00:13:15.200> it<00:13:15.360> was<00:13:16.240> what<00:13:16.639> what<00:13:17.600> you've<00:13:17.760> seen<00:13:18.160> 12<00:13:18.480> years,<00:13:19.040> 13<00:13:19.519> years

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at<00:13:20.240> Educause.<00:13:20.800> You<00:13:20.880> kind<00:13:20.959> of<00:13:21.040> answered<00:13:21.279> that<00:13:21.440> a<00:13:21.600> little<00:13:21.680> bit<00:13:21.839> of<00:13:22.000> that<00:13:22.160> role<00:13:22.320> of<00:13:22.399> the<00:13:22.560> CIO.

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The<00:13:23.360> next<00:13:23.680> question<00:13:24.240> from<00:13:24.480> one<00:13:24.639> of<00:13:24.720> the<00:13:24.880> other<00:13:25.040> CIOs<00:13:25.519> was<00:13:25.839> what<00:13:26.000> do<00:13:26.160> you<00:13:26.320> think<00:13:26.480> is<00:13:26.720> going<00:13:26.800> to<00:13:26.880> be<00:13:27.040> the<00:13:27.279> next<00:13:27.440> 10<00:13:27.680> to<00:13:27.920> 12<00:13:28.160> years?

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I<00:13:29.120> know<00:13:29.360> it's<00:13:29.600> loaded.<00:13:29.840> I'm<00:13:30.080> sorry.<00:13:30.320> [laughter]<00:13:30.560> And<00:13:30.800> for<00:13:31.040> higher<00:13:31.280> ed<00:13:31.520> [laughter]<00:13:31.760> for<00:13:32.000> the<00:13:32.240> for<00:13:32.480> the<00:13:32.720> role<00:13:32.960> of<00:13:33.200> the<00:13:33.440> CIO.

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[laughter]<00:13:34.860> Yeah.<00:13:35.160> Actually,<00:13:35.460> I<00:13:35.759> and<00:13:36.059> I<00:13:36.359> touched<00:13:36.659> on<00:13:36.959> this.

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I<00:13:37.519> and<00:13:37.760> I<00:13:38.000> wouldn't<00:13:38.160> have<00:13:38.399> said<00:13:38.560> this<00:13:38.959> 10<00:13:39.200> years<00:13:39.360> ago,<00:13:40.399> but<00:13:40.880> there's<00:13:41.360> so<00:13:41.600> many<00:13:41.760> different<00:13:41.920> ways<00:13:42.079> to<00:13:42.240> answer.

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One<00:13:42.720> way<00:13:42.880> is<00:13:43.440> for<00:13:43.600> a<00:13:43.839> while<00:13:44.000> there,<00:13:44.320> remember<00:13:44.639> there<00:13:44.800> were<00:13:44.959> articles<00:13:45.440> coming<00:13:45.680> out<00:13:45.920> that<00:13:46.240> said<00:13:47.040> IT<00:13:47.360> is<00:13:47.519> irrelevant.

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I<00:13:48.480> there<00:13:48.800> somebody<00:13:49.120> wrote<00:13:49.279> a<00:13:49.440> big<00:13:49.600> article<00:13:49.760> and<00:13:50.000> it<00:13:50.160> got<00:13:50.320> everybody's<00:13:50.800> attention.

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Yeah.<00:13:51.551> [laughter]<00:13:51.823> And<00:13:52.095> the<00:13:52.367> idea<00:13:52.639> wasn't<00:13:52.911> that<00:13:53.183> the<00:13:53.456> work<00:13:53.728> of<00:13:54.000> IT<00:13:54.272> is<00:13:54.544> is<00:13:54.816> [laughter]<00:13:55.088> car<00:13:55.360> maybe.

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Yes.<00:13:56.337> [laughter]<00:13:56.595> Not<00:13:56.852> that<00:13:57.110> the<00:13:57.368> work<00:13:57.626> of<00:13:57.883> IT<00:13:58.141> goes<00:13:58.399> away.

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It's<00:13:59.120> just<00:13:59.279> that<00:13:59.600> IT<00:13:59.760> isn't<00:14:00.240> is<00:14:00.399> going<00:14:00.480> to<00:14:00.560> be<00:14:00.639> so<00:14:00.959> ubiquitous<00:14:01.519> that<00:14:01.760> we're<00:14:02.000> never<00:14:02.240> we're<00:14:02.399> not<00:14:02.560> going<00:14:02.639> to<00:14:02.720> need<00:14:02.880> to<00:14:03.040> call<00:14:03.199> it<00:14:03.360> out<00:14:03.519> anymore<00:14:03.839> than<00:14:04.000> you'd<00:14:04.240> have<00:14:04.320> a<00:14:04.480> department

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of<00:14:04.959> electricity<00:14:06.079> or<00:14:06.480> and<00:14:06.720> I<00:14:06.880> think<00:14:06.959> that's<00:14:07.680> there<00:14:07.839> could<00:14:08.000> be<00:14:08.160> a<00:14:08.320> version<00:14:08.639> of<00:14:09.040> that.

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I<00:14:09.760> don't<00:14:09.920> think<00:14:10.160> so.<00:14:10.399> So<00:14:10.560> I<00:14:10.800> think<00:14:10.880> it<00:14:11.440> I<00:14:11.760> think<00:14:11.839> it<00:14:12.160> could<00:14:12.320> be<00:14:12.480> possible<00:14:12.959> that<00:14:14.000> the<00:14:14.240> role<00:14:14.480> of<00:14:14.639> the<00:14:14.800> CIO<00:14:15.440> could<00:14:16.160> broaden<00:14:16.560> out<00:14:16.800> and<00:14:17.120> become<00:14:17.440> more

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of<00:14:18.012> a<00:14:18.345> strategic<00:14:18.677> services<00:14:19.009> and<00:14:19.342> instead<00:14:19.674> of<00:14:20.006> a<00:14:20.338> CIO<00:14:20.671> you<00:14:21.003> might<00:14:21.335> have<00:14:21.668> a<00:14:22.000> VP<00:14:22.332> of<00:14:22.665> strategic<00:14:22.997> services<00:14:23.329> which<00:14:23.662> is<00:14:23.994> what<00:14:24.326> one<00:14:24.658> of<00:14:24.991> our<00:14:25.323> board<00:14:25.655> members<00:14:25.988> [laughter]<00:14:26.320> was

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a<00:14:26.800> CIO<00:14:27.519> very<00:14:27.920> recently<00:14:28.399> was<00:14:28.639> promoted<00:14:29.040> to<00:14:29.199> a<00:14:29.360> VP<00:14:29.680> of<00:14:30.000> strategic<00:14:30.560> services<00:14:30.959> David<00:14:31.199> Wy<00:14:31.600> at<00:14:31.760> Ithaca<00:14:32.240> College<00:14:32.800> and<00:14:33.040> and<00:14:34.160> I<00:14:34.320> think<00:14:34.480> that<00:14:34.720> I

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actually<00:14:35.199> think<00:14:35.360> that<00:14:35.600> is<00:14:35.839> probably<00:14:36.160> the<00:14:36.480> direction<00:14:37.199> we'll<00:14:37.519> go<00:14:38.320> because<00:14:39.279> AI<00:14:39.760> will<00:14:40.079> be<00:14:40.800> ubiquitous<00:14:41.600> and<00:14:42.639> presumably<00:14:43.440> effective

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and<00:14:44.240> settle<00:14:44.639> into<00:14:45.600> strategies<00:14:46.240> and<00:14:46.880> ways<00:14:47.199> that<00:14:47.440> it<00:14:47.680> works<00:14:47.920> and<00:14:48.240> doesn't<00:14:48.480> work<00:14:48.720> and<00:14:49.360> and<00:14:50.000> yeah,<00:14:50.320> I<00:14:50.560> think<00:14:50.720> I<00:14:50.880> I'm<00:14:51.120> going<00:14:51.199> to<00:14:51.279> go<00:14:51.360> with<00:14:51.519> that.

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So,<00:14:52.017> you're<00:14:52.274> going<00:14:52.531> to<00:14:52.789> dig<00:14:53.046> me<00:14:53.303> up<00:14:53.560> and<00:14:53.817> 12<00:14:54.074> years<00:14:54.331> and<00:14:54.589> [laughter]<00:14:54.846> hey,<00:14:55.103> I'm<00:14:55.360> young.

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[laughter]<00:14:56.166> We<00:14:56.412> owe<00:14:56.658> me<00:14:56.905> out<00:14:57.151> to<00:14:57.397> your<00:14:57.643> podcast<00:14:57.889> and<00:14:58.135> tell<00:14:58.382> me<00:14:58.628> check<00:14:58.874> my<00:14:59.120> work.

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Yeah.<00:14:59.695> What<00:14:59.871> do<00:15:00.047> you<00:15:00.223> think?<00:15:00.399> [laughter]<00:15:00.575> I<00:15:00.751> think<00:15:00.927> you're<00:15:01.103> bang<00:15:01.279> on.

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There's<00:15:02.000> two<00:15:02.160> directions.<00:15:02.639> One<00:15:02.800> is<00:15:03.040> to<00:15:04.000> a<00:15:04.160> greater<00:15:04.959> greater<00:15:05.279> impact<00:15:05.600> in<00:15:05.760> the<00:15:05.920> organization<00:15:06.959> and<00:15:07.839> technical<00:15:08.399> person<00:15:08.720> or<00:15:09.360> CIO<00:15:11.120> step

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role<00:15:13.920> but<00:15:14.639> some<00:15:14.959> CIOs<00:15:15.839> like<00:15:16.160> to<00:15:16.320> tell<00:15:17.120> and<00:15:17.360> they<00:15:17.600> will<00:15:17.760> go<00:15:17.920> the<00:15:18.160> other<00:15:18.320> direction.

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The<00:15:20.160> danger<00:15:20.720> in<00:15:20.959> that<00:15:21.360> is<00:15:21.600> that<00:15:22.720> 150<00:15:22.959> years<00:15:23.120> ago<00:15:23.680> organizations<00:15:24.320> had<00:15:24.480> a<00:15:24.720> vice<00:15:24.959> president<00:15:25.440> of<00:15:27.199> they<00:15:27.440> don't<00:15:27.600> see<00:15:27.760> that<00:15:28.000> anymore.

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We're<00:15:29.279> not<00:15:29.440> going<00:15:29.519> to<00:15:29.680> see<00:15:29.839> a<00:15:30.000> vice<00:15:30.320> president<00:15:30.880> technology,<00:15:31.760> but<00:15:32.000> what<00:15:32.240> we'll<00:15:32.560> see<00:15:32.639> is<00:15:33.760> really<00:15:34.160> understand<00:15:34.639> those<00:15:35.279> issues<00:15:36.480> skills.

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[laughter]<00:15:37.211> It's<00:15:37.543> a<00:15:37.874> VP<00:15:38.205> of<00:15:38.536> systems<00:15:38.868> or<00:15:39.199> something.

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[laughter]<00:15:40.088> Yeah.<00:15:40.416> [laughter]<00:15:40.744> But<00:15:41.072> they<00:15:41.400> will<00:15:41.728> be<00:15:42.056> ubiquitous<00:15:42.384> in<00:15:42.712> the<00:15:43.040> organization.

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Every<00:15:44.240> organization<00:15:44.880> is<00:15:44.959> a<00:15:45.199> technology<00:15:46.160> organization.

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Leadership<00:15:47.859> has<00:15:48.199> to<00:15:48.539> be<00:15:48.879> [laughter]<00:15:49.219> then<00:15:49.559> you<00:15:49.899> get<00:15:50.239> into<00:15:50.579> this<00:15:50.919> whole<00:15:51.259> like<00:15:51.600> I<00:15:51.940> have<00:15:52.280> I've<00:15:52.620> been<00:15:52.960> I've<00:15:53.300> done<00:15:53.640> media<00:15:53.980> training<00:15:54.320> so<00:15:54.660> I<00:15:55.000> know<00:15:55.340> I<00:15:55.680> don't

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have<00:15:55.920> to<00:15:56.079> answer<00:15:56.320> the<00:15:56.560> question<00:15:56.720> you<00:15:56.959> asked.<00:15:57.839> So,<00:15:58.480> let<00:15:58.720> me<00:15:58.800> answer<00:15:59.040> a<00:15:59.279> question<00:15:59.440> you<00:15:59.680> didn't<00:15:59.839> ask.

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[laughter]<00:16:00.472> Just<00:16:00.785> learned<00:16:01.097> something.<00:16:01.410> [laughter]<00:16:01.722> Oh,<00:16:02.034> yeah.<00:16:02.347> No,<00:16:02.659> the<00:16:02.971> famous<00:16:03.284> story<00:16:03.596> of<00:16:03.909> that<00:16:04.221> is<00:16:04.533> Winston<00:16:04.846> Churchill<00:16:05.158> supposedly,<00:16:05.470> everything<00:16:05.783> gets<00:16:06.095> attributed<00:16:06.408> to<00:16:06.720> Churchill,

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but<00:16:07.360> he<00:16:07.920> supposedly<00:16:08.560> came<00:16:09.040> to<00:16:09.279> a<00:16:09.759> press<00:16:10.000> conference<00:16:10.480> and<00:16:10.800> said,<00:16:11.279> "I'm<00:16:11.600> so<00:16:11.839> excited<00:16:12.160> to<00:16:12.399> hear<00:16:12.639> what<00:16:12.880> what<00:16:13.279> questions<00:16:13.680> you<00:16:13.920> have<00:16:14.000> for<00:16:14.240> my<00:16:14.480> answers."

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[laughter]<00:16:15.759> But<00:16:16.240> to<00:16:16.480> me,<00:16:16.720> the<00:16:16.959> question<00:16:17.440> also<00:16:18.160> is<00:16:18.480> just<00:16:19.199> what<00:16:19.440> is<00:16:19.600> going<00:16:19.680> to<00:16:19.759> be<00:16:19.920> the<00:16:20.160> future<00:16:20.399> of<00:16:20.720> institutions?

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I<00:16:22.240> worry<00:16:22.560> about<00:16:23.600> I<00:16:23.839> think<00:16:24.240> as<00:16:24.560> we<00:16:24.800> settle<00:16:25.120> into<00:16:25.519> nobody<00:16:26.240> talks<00:16:26.560> about<00:16:26.720> technology<00:16:27.199> the<00:16:27.440> same<00:16:27.600> because<00:16:27.839> tech<00:16:28.079> is<00:16:28.480> everywhere.

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I<00:16:29.360> think<00:16:29.519> there<00:16:29.759> may<00:16:30.000> be<00:16:30.160> a<00:16:30.320> kind<00:16:30.480> of<00:16:30.560> a<00:16:30.800> renaissance<00:16:31.440> of<00:16:31.759> the<00:16:32.560> tech-free<00:16:33.279> class.

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I<00:16:33.801> already<00:16:34.082> saw<00:16:34.364> an<00:16:34.646> article<00:16:34.927> the<00:16:35.209> other<00:16:35.490> day.<00:16:35.772> I<00:16:36.054> think<00:16:36.335> there's<00:16:36.617> a<00:16:36.899> possibility<00:16:37.180> that<00:16:37.462> maybe<00:16:37.744> some<00:16:38.025> remember<00:16:38.307> the<00:16:38.589> great<00:16:38.870> books<00:16:39.152> movement<00:16:39.433> [laughter]<00:16:39.715> so<00:16:39.997> that<00:16:40.278> there<00:16:40.560> may

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be<00:16:40.800> a<00:16:41.040> sort<00:16:41.199> of<00:16:41.279> a<00:16:41.440> movement<00:16:41.759> for<00:16:42.000> campuses<00:16:42.480> to<00:16:42.720> have<00:16:42.880> tech-free<00:16:43.680> environments.

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I<00:16:44.880> think<00:16:45.040> that<00:16:45.199> will<00:16:45.360> be<00:16:45.519> an<00:16:45.839> interesting<00:16:46.240> development.

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My<00:16:47.680> other<00:16:47.920> worry,<00:16:48.480> which<00:16:48.720> is<00:16:49.759> deep,<00:16:50.399> is<00:16:51.120> that<00:16:51.360> we're<00:16:51.600> going<00:16:51.680> to<00:16:51.759> have<00:16:51.920> a<00:16:52.079> digital<00:16:52.480> divide<00:16:53.040> sort<00:16:53.199> of<00:16:53.360> dystopian<00:16:54.079> thing<00:16:54.240> where<00:16:55.040> I'm<00:16:55.279> being<00:16:55.519> crass

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and<00:16:56.000> I'm<00:16:56.160> overexaggerating,<00:16:57.120> but<00:16:57.600> the<00:16:58.639> elite<00:16:59.440> experiences<00:17:00.320> will<00:17:00.639> be<00:17:01.360> low<00:17:01.600> tech,<00:17:02.079> high<00:17:02.399> human,<00:17:02.959> and<00:17:03.199> then<00:17:03.440> the<00:17:03.680> rest<00:17:03.759> of<00:17:03.920> us

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get<00:17:04.559> AI<00:17:04.959> slop.<00:17:05.360> And<00:17:05.520> I'm<00:17:05.679> being<00:17:05.919> provocative<00:17:06.400> in<00:17:06.640> saying<00:17:06.799> it<00:17:06.959> that<00:17:07.120> way,<00:17:07.280> but<00:17:07.520> that<00:17:08.079> that<00:17:08.720> AI<00:17:09.199> can<00:17:09.439> reduce<00:17:09.919> costs.

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It<00:17:10.640> can<00:17:10.799> do<00:17:11.039> things<00:17:11.199> at<00:17:11.520> scale.<00:17:12.160> I<00:17:12.480> hope<00:17:12.640> it<00:17:12.880> doesn't<00:17:13.039> become<00:17:13.280> an<00:17:13.520> either-or.

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I<00:17:14.480> hope<00:17:14.799> all<00:17:15.120> institutions<00:17:16.319> will<00:17:16.640> use<00:17:16.880> AI<00:17:17.439> in<00:17:17.600> the<00:17:17.760> way<00:17:17.839> that<00:17:18.079> you<00:17:18.240> hinted<00:17:18.559> at,<00:17:18.799> which<00:17:19.039> is<00:17:19.280> use<00:17:19.520> AI<00:17:19.919> to<00:17:20.079> do<00:17:20.240> the<00:17:20.480> lower<00:17:21.120> tactical<00:17:21.679> things<00:17:22.000> that<00:17:22.400> are

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bothersome<00:17:23.760> and<00:17:24.240> wasted<00:17:24.720> time<00:17:24.880> and<00:17:25.120> not<00:17:25.280> good<00:17:25.439> use<00:17:25.679> of<00:17:25.839> big<00:17:26.079> brains<00:17:26.480> and<00:17:26.720> then<00:17:27.520> repurpose<00:17:28.240> the<00:17:28.559> time<00:17:28.880> that<00:17:29.120> creates<00:17:29.520> to<00:17:29.760> do<00:17:30.240> better<00:17:30.720> and<00:17:30.960> different<00:17:31.200> things.

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I<00:17:31.679> hope<00:17:31.760> that's<00:17:32.000> how<00:17:32.160> it<00:17:32.320> works,<00:17:32.880> but<00:17:33.120> it<00:17:33.360> could<00:17:33.520> go<00:17:33.679> sideways<00:17:34.160> in<00:17:34.400> a<00:17:34.559> couple<00:17:34.799> ways<00:17:35.120> that<00:17:35.679> concern<00:17:36.080> me<00:17:36.240> a<00:17:36.480> little<00:17:36.559> bit.

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[laughter]<00:17:37.307> We're<00:17:37.653> shifting<00:17:38.000> from<00:17:38.346> deterministic<00:17:38.693> systems,<00:17:39.039> right?

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The<00:17:39.919> classic<00:17:40.320> general<00:17:40.640> edge<00:17:41.039> system<00:17:42.160> numbers<00:17:42.880> tells<00:17:43.200> you<00:17:43.440> to<00:17:45.520> know<00:17:45.679> it's<00:17:45.840> the<00:17:45.919> right<00:17:46.160> answer<00:17:46.559> and<00:17:46.799> when<00:17:46.960> you<00:17:47.280> ask<00:17:47.919> question

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twice<00:17:48.559> you<00:17:48.720> get<00:17:48.799> the<00:17:48.960> same<00:17:49.200> answer.<00:17:49.840> Probabilistic<00:17:50.559> model<00:17:50.960> stochastic<00:17:51.600> models<00:17:52.000> where<00:17:52.480> you<00:17:52.720> don't<00:17:52.880> know<00:17:53.120> if<00:17:53.280> the<00:17:53.520> answer<00:17:53.760> is<00:17:54.240> correct<00:17:54.720> and<00:17:54.960> if<00:17:55.120> we<00:17:55.200> ask<00:17:55.440> the<00:17:55.600> same<00:17:55.760> question

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twice<00:17:56.480> we<00:17:56.640> might<00:17:56.799> not<00:17:56.960> get<00:17:57.120> the<00:17:57.360> same<00:17:57.600> answer<00:17:58.000> and<00:17:58.240> so<00:17:59.039> using<00:17:59.440> these<00:17:59.679> system<00:18:00.320> requires<00:18:01.120> different<00:18:01.440> set<00:18:01.679> of<00:18:01.840> attitude<00:18:02.640> responsibility<00:18:03.520> criteria.

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[laughter]<00:18:05.219> Yeah.<00:18:05.639> [laughter]<00:18:06.059> Likewise<00:18:06.480> [laughter]<00:18:06.900> never<00:18:07.320> a<00:18:07.740> dull<00:18:08.160> moment.

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Yeah.<00:18:08.766> [laughter]<00:18:08.972> Gosh,<00:18:09.179> we<00:18:09.386> need<00:18:09.592> a<00:18:09.799> lot<00:18:10.006> of<00:18:10.212> consultants<00:18:10.419> or<00:18:10.626> something,<00:18:10.832> don't<00:18:11.039> we?

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[laughter]<00:18:12.276> He's<00:18:12.472> pretty<00:18:12.668> smart.<00:18:12.864> I'm<00:18:13.060> saying<00:18:13.256> [laughter]<00:18:13.452> I<00:18:13.648> don't<00:18:13.844> want<00:18:14.040> to<00:18:14.236> hijack<00:18:14.432> the<00:18:14.628> interview,<00:18:14.824> but<00:18:15.020> I<00:18:15.216> guess<00:18:15.412> I<00:18:15.608> am<00:18:15.804> the<00:18:16.000> host.

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A<00:18:16.536> lot<00:18:16.752> of<00:18:16.968> a<00:18:17.184> lot<00:18:17.400> of<00:18:17.616> CI<00:18:17.832> [laughter]<00:18:18.048> fill<00:18:18.264> us<00:18:18.480> out.

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Can<00:18:18.799> you<00:18:18.960> hijack<00:18:19.360> your<00:18:19.520> own<00:18:19.840> interview?<00:18:20.320> I<00:18:20.480> don't<00:18:20.559> know.

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[laughter]<00:18:21.344> The<00:18:21.649> next<00:18:21.955> Winston<00:18:22.260> Church,<00:18:22.565> [laughter]<00:18:22.870> a<00:18:23.176> lot<00:18:23.481> of<00:18:23.786> folks<00:18:24.091> I've<00:18:24.396> been<00:18:24.702> talking<00:18:25.007> to<00:18:25.312> really<00:18:25.617> want<00:18:25.923> to<00:18:26.228> know,<00:18:26.533> John,<00:18:26.838> over<00:18:27.143> the<00:18:27.449> last<00:18:27.754> 12<00:18:28.059> or<00:18:28.364> 13<00:18:28.670> years,<00:18:28.975> what's<00:18:29.280> the

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one<00:18:29.840> thing<00:18:30.080> you've<00:18:30.320> been<00:18:30.480> most<00:18:30.799> proud<00:18:31.039> of<00:18:31.840> at<00:18:32.000> Educause?

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you<00:18:32.789> had<00:18:32.939> to<00:18:33.088> choose<00:18:33.237> [laughter]<00:18:33.387> because<00:18:33.536> I<00:18:33.685> don't<00:18:33.835> have<00:18:33.984> to<00:18:34.133> answer<00:18:34.283> the<00:18:34.432> question<00:18:34.581> I<00:18:34.731> was<00:18:34.880> asked.

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Let<00:18:35.567> me<00:18:35.934> tell<00:18:36.301> you<00:18:36.668> the<00:18:37.035> two<00:18:37.402> things<00:18:37.769> that<00:18:38.136> I'm<00:18:38.504> Yeah,<00:18:38.871> I'm<00:18:39.238> really<00:18:39.605> proud<00:18:39.972> of<00:18:40.339> broadening<00:18:40.706> the<00:18:41.073> Educause<00:18:41.440> tent.

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When<00:18:42.799> I<00:18:42.960> started<00:18:43.679> it,<00:18:44.080> it<00:18:44.400> was<00:18:44.480> a<00:18:44.640> narrower<00:18:45.120> conversation.

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And<00:18:46.240> when<00:18:46.480> the<00:18:46.720> board<00:18:46.960> hired<00:18:47.360> me,<00:18:47.679> I<00:18:48.080> spent<00:18:48.400> a<00:18:48.559> lot<00:18:48.640> of<00:18:48.799> time<00:18:49.120> while<00:18:49.280> I<00:18:49.440> was<00:18:49.600> interviewing<00:18:50.080> talking<00:18:50.400> about<00:18:51.200> I<00:18:51.520> remember<00:18:51.840> saying<00:18:52.640> because<00:18:52.880> I<00:18:53.039> thought<00:18:53.120> it<00:18:53.280> was<00:18:53.360> a<00:18:53.520> great

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phrase.<00:18:54.080> I<00:18:54.240> said,<00:18:54.320> "The<00:18:54.640> future<00:18:54.799> of<00:18:55.120> IT<00:18:55.360> is<00:18:55.520> not<00:18:55.760> IT<00:18:56.080> talking<00:18:56.320> to<00:18:56.480> itself<00:18:57.360> more<00:18:57.600> intensively.

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It<00:18:58.657> has<00:18:58.993> to<00:18:59.330> be."<00:18:59.667> And<00:19:00.003> I<00:19:00.340> was<00:19:00.677> [laughter]<00:19:01.013> without<00:19:01.350> knowing<00:19:01.687> it<00:19:02.023> I<00:19:02.360> was<00:19:02.697> talking<00:19:03.033> about<00:19:03.370> this<00:19:03.707> integrative<00:19:04.043> CIO<00:19:04.380> [laughter]<00:19:04.717> card<00:19:05.053> and<00:19:05.390> in<00:19:05.727> the<00:19:06.063> evolution<00:19:06.400> of

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Educause<00:19:06.836> over<00:19:07.193> the<00:19:07.549> last<00:19:07.905> 12<00:19:08.262> years<00:19:08.618> that's<00:19:08.975> meant<00:19:09.331> that<00:19:09.687> we<00:19:10.044> now<00:19:10.400> welcome<00:19:10.756> faculty<00:19:11.113> instructional<00:19:11.469> designers<00:19:11.825> that's<00:19:12.182> names<00:19:12.538> I<00:19:12.895> was<00:19:13.251> rattling<00:19:13.607> off<00:19:13.964> earlier<00:19:14.320> that

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the<00:19:15.360> tent<00:19:15.679> has<00:19:15.840> gotten<00:19:16.160> so<00:19:16.400> much<00:19:16.640> bigger<00:19:17.600> that<00:19:18.080> it<00:19:19.039> makes<00:19:19.280> the<00:19:19.520> conversation<00:19:20.240> richer<00:19:20.720> and<00:19:20.880> we've<00:19:21.120> made<00:19:21.280> a<00:19:21.600> priority<00:19:22.080> of<00:19:22.480> defining<00:19:22.960> ourselves<00:19:23.440> not

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by<00:19:24.000> who<00:19:24.240> we<00:19:24.400> turn<00:19:24.559> away<00:19:24.799> but<00:19:25.120> by<00:19:25.360> who<00:19:25.600> we<00:19:26.000> welcome<00:19:26.400> and<00:19:26.640> we<00:19:26.799> welcome<00:19:27.120> anybody<00:19:27.520> who<00:19:28.240> who<00:19:28.799> has<00:19:29.039> the<00:19:29.280> word<00:19:29.440> technology<00:19:30.000> in<00:19:30.240> their<00:19:30.400> job<00:19:30.640> and<00:19:30.960> loves<00:19:31.200> it<00:19:31.280> and<00:19:31.520> wants<00:19:31.760> to

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talk<00:19:32.175> about<00:19:32.431> it.<00:19:32.687> You<00:19:32.943> [laughter]<00:19:33.200> built<00:19:33.456> a<00:19:33.712> demand<00:19:33.968> for<00:19:34.224> around<00:19:34.480> greater.

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[laughter]<00:19:35.740> Yeah.<00:19:35.960> [laughter]<00:19:36.180> And<00:19:36.400> so<00:19:36.620> it's<00:19:36.840> not<00:19:37.060> just<00:19:37.280> technology.

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You've<00:19:38.160> changed<00:19:38.480> Educause<00:19:40.160> the<00:19:40.400> broader<00:19:40.799> social<00:19:41.200> which<00:19:41.440> is<00:19:41.679> big<00:19:41.919> deal.

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[laughter]<00:19:42.615> Yeah.<00:19:42.910> That<00:19:43.205> was<00:19:43.500> our<00:19:43.795> vision<00:19:44.090> statement<00:19:44.385> is<00:19:44.680> transforming<00:19:44.974> higher<00:19:45.269> education<00:19:45.564> in<00:19:45.859> service<00:19:46.154> to<00:19:46.449> a<00:19:46.744> greater<00:19:47.039> good.

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Doesn't<00:19:48.080> mention<00:19:48.400> technology<00:19:48.960> because<00:19:49.200> the<00:19:49.360> tools<00:19:49.679> come<00:19:49.760> and<00:19:50.000> go<00:19:50.240> but<00:19:50.720> it's<00:19:50.960> how<00:19:51.120> are<00:19:51.280> you<00:19:51.440> using<00:19:51.679> them<00:19:51.840> and<00:19:52.080> the<00:19:52.320> difference<00:19:52.480> you<00:19:52.640> want<00:19:52.720> to<00:19:52.799> make.

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[laughter]<00:19:53.239> The<00:19:53.439> tools<00:19:53.639> are<00:19:53.840> ephemeral.<00:19:54.040> [laughter]<00:19:54.240> Yeah.<00:19:54.440> [laughter]<00:19:54.640> Yeah.

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[laughter]<00:19:55.283> And<00:19:55.606> that's<00:19:55.929> not<00:19:56.253> about<00:19:56.576> me.<00:19:56.899> that's<00:19:57.222> about<00:19:57.545> the<00:19:57.868> whole<00:19:58.192> organization<00:19:58.515> and<00:19:58.838> rallying<00:19:59.161> around<00:19:59.484> an<00:19:59.807> idea<00:20:00.131> that<00:20:00.454> made<00:20:00.777> sense<00:20:01.100> and<00:20:01.423> makes<00:20:01.746> sense<00:20:02.070> and<00:20:02.393> I'm<00:20:02.716> really<00:20:03.039> proud

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Educause<00:20:20.133> review<00:20:20.427> three<00:20:20.720> questions<00:20:21.013> like<00:20:21.307> what<00:20:21.600> do<00:20:21.893> you<00:20:22.187> love<00:20:22.480> about<00:20:22.773> Educause<00:20:23.067> what<00:20:23.360> do<00:20:23.653> we<00:20:23.947> need<00:20:24.240> to<00:20:24.533> do<00:20:24.827> better<00:20:25.120> and<00:20:25.413> some<00:20:25.707> just<00:20:26.000> very<00:20:26.293> easy<00:20:26.587> have<00:20:26.880> questions

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She's<00:20:57.440> awesome<00:20:57.679> and<00:20:57.919> but<00:20:58.159> it's<00:20:58.320> she's<00:20:58.640> changed<00:20:58.960> that<00:20:59.200> conversation.

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It's<00:21:41.323> now<00:21:41.686> 10<00:21:42.049> years<00:21:42.412> later<00:21:42.775> and<00:21:43.138> the<00:21:43.501> Educause<00:21:43.864> board<00:21:44.227> as<00:21:44.590> Mark<00:21:44.953> knows<00:21:45.316> is<00:21:45.679> small.

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[laughter]<00:22:10.976> You're<00:22:11.312> investing<00:22:11.648> in<00:22:11.984> future<00:22:12.320> shots.

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[laughter]<00:22:13.026> I<00:22:13.253> think<00:22:13.479> so.<00:22:13.706> I<00:22:13.933> think<00:22:14.160> so.<00:22:14.386> Yeah.<00:22:14.613> So,<00:22:14.840> thanks<00:22:15.067> for<00:22:15.293> asking<00:22:15.520> that.

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[laughter]<00:22:16.059> I<00:22:16.278> love<00:22:16.497> that.<00:22:16.716> I<00:22:16.935> also<00:22:17.154> love<00:22:17.373> the<00:22:17.592> young<00:22:17.811> Mark<00:22:18.029> knows<00:22:18.248> I<00:22:18.467> talk<00:22:18.686> about<00:22:18.905> all<00:22:19.124> the<00:22:19.343> time<00:22:19.562> on<00:22:19.781> the<00:22:20.000> podcast.

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I<00:22:20.480> coach<00:22:20.640> high<00:22:20.799> school<00:22:20.960> basketball<00:22:21.440> and<00:22:21.679> so<00:22:21.760> I<00:22:21.919> love<00:22:22.080> spending<00:22:22.320> time<00:22:22.400> with<00:22:22.559> kids<00:22:22.799> and<00:22:23.200> seeing<00:22:23.440> they<00:22:23.600> they<00:22:23.919> come<00:22:24.000> back<00:22:24.159> to<00:22:24.320> campus<00:22:24.640> and<00:22:25.120> when<00:22:25.360> they<00:22:25.520> graduate<00:22:25.919> and<00:22:26.480> seeing

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some<00:23:30.080> of<00:23:30.159> the<00:23:30.320> college<00:23:30.640> students<00:23:30.880> are<00:23:31.039> here<00:23:31.280> asking<00:23:31.600> those<00:23:31.840> questions<00:23:32.320> and<00:23:32.799> how<00:23:32.960> does<00:23:33.120> media<00:23:33.520> intersect<00:23:33.919> with<00:23:34.080> cyber<00:23:34.400> security<00:23:34.799> like<00:23:35.039> that's<00:23:35.280> such<00:23:35.440> a<00:23:35.679> great<00:23:36.159> great

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topic<00:23:37.360> so<00:23:37.679> we're<00:23:38.480> rounding<00:23:39.039> the<00:23:39.280> corner<00:23:39.600> on<00:23:39.840> the<00:23:40.159> on<00:23:40.400> the<00:23:40.559> podcast<00:23:41.280> my<00:23:41.600> grandfather<00:23:42.640> was<00:23:42.960> I<00:23:43.280> sent<00:23:43.600> this<00:23:43.760> I<00:23:43.919> think<00:23:44.000> I<00:23:44.159> put<00:23:44.400> this<00:23:44.559> article

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he<00:23:45.120> taught<00:23:45.360> at<00:23:45.440> UCSB<00:23:46.000> for<00:23:46.240> 50<00:23:46.480> years<00:23:47.280> UCSB<00:23:48.400> Santa<00:23:48.640> Barbara<00:23:49.840> and<00:23:50.559> I<00:23:50.799> was<00:23:50.960> in<00:23:51.520> he<00:23:51.760> taught<00:23:52.400> history.

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He<00:23:53.120> specialized<00:23:53.600> in<00:23:53.840> Brazilian<00:23:54.480> and<00:23:54.799> Portuguese<00:23:56.000> history.

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And<00:23:56.559> so<00:23:56.640> I<00:23:56.799> had<00:23:56.880> the<00:23:56.960> honor<00:23:57.120> of<00:23:57.200> auditing<00:23:57.600> his<00:23:57.760> classes<00:23:58.000> when<00:23:58.240> I<00:23:58.320> was<00:23:58.400> in<00:23:58.559> high<00:23:58.720> school.

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All<00:23:59.520> these<00:23:59.679> college<00:23:59.919> kids<00:24:00.400> and<00:24:00.559> so<00:24:00.640> I<00:24:00.799> grew<00:24:00.960> up<00:24:01.360> every<00:24:02.000> family<00:24:03.039> barbecue<00:24:03.520> and<00:24:03.679> he<00:24:03.840> would<00:24:04.000> barbecue.

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He<00:24:05.039> would<00:24:05.200> be<00:24:05.360> talking<00:24:05.679> about<00:24:06.320> he<00:24:06.559> he<00:24:06.880> would<00:24:07.039> just<00:24:07.200> be<00:24:07.360> talking<00:24:07.600> about<00:24:08.080> history<00:24:08.640> and<00:24:08.960> everything<00:24:09.200> from<00:24:09.440> Portuguese,<00:24:10.000> world<00:24:10.240> history,<00:24:10.480> all<00:24:10.640> this.

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And<00:24:11.039> I<00:24:11.200> just<00:24:11.360> absolutely<00:24:11.840> loved<00:24:12.400> kind<00:24:12.559> of<00:24:12.640> his<00:24:12.880> heart<00:24:13.039> for<00:24:13.279> the<00:24:13.360> university<00:24:13.919> and<00:24:14.159> history.

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So,<00:24:15.200> I<00:24:15.440> started<00:24:15.679> as<00:24:15.919> a<00:24:16.000> history<00:24:16.320> major<00:24:17.039> and<00:24:17.360> then<00:24:17.679> turned<00:24:17.919> to<00:24:18.159> finance<00:24:18.559> and<00:24:18.799> math.

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So,<00:24:19.360> there's<00:24:19.600> a<00:24:19.679> part<00:24:19.760> of<00:24:19.919> me<00:24:20.080> I'm<00:24:20.320> maybe<00:24:20.799> I<00:24:20.960> should<00:24:21.120> be<00:24:21.200> in<00:24:21.360> the<00:24:21.440> middle<00:24:21.520> of<00:24:21.679> this.

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You<00:24:22.240> really<00:24:22.400> should<00:24:22.640> be.<00:24:22.799> Yeah.<00:24:23.440> But<00:24:23.600> you<00:24:23.840> started<00:24:24.159> as<00:24:25.120> math.

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Yeah.<00:24:25.960> Or<00:24:26.160> no,<00:24:26.360> you<00:24:26.560> were<00:24:26.760> going<00:24:26.960> to<00:24:27.160> start<00:24:27.360> history.

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You<00:24:27.840> switched<00:24:28.000> to<00:24:28.159> math.<00:24:28.559> Yeah.<00:24:28.960> You<00:24:29.200> did<00:24:29.360> math<00:24:29.600> and<00:24:29.760> now<00:24:29.919> you<00:24:30.080> love<00:24:30.320> history.

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Yes.<00:24:31.360> And<00:24:31.520> I<00:24:31.679> actually<00:24:32.080> started<00:24:32.400> thinking<00:24:32.720> I<00:24:32.880> was<00:24:32.960> going<00:24:33.039> to<00:24:33.120> be<00:24:33.200> a<00:24:33.279> history<00:24:33.600> major,<00:24:33.919> but<00:24:34.559> went<00:24:34.799> with<00:24:34.960> English.

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There<00:24:35.520> you<00:24:35.679> go.<00:24:36.080> So,<00:24:36.400> I'd<00:24:36.640> love<00:24:36.720> to<00:24:36.880> hear<00:24:37.360> from<00:24:37.600> you.

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Kind<00:24:38.159> of<00:24:38.320> one<00:24:38.640> one<00:24:39.039> partying.<00:24:39.679> You<00:24:39.840> still<00:24:40.000> got<00:24:40.080> a<00:24:40.240> year.

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I<00:24:40.559> know<00:24:40.720> you're<00:24:40.799> not<00:24:40.960> going<00:24:41.520> still<00:24:41.679> around,<00:24:41.919> but<00:24:42.240> not<00:24:42.400> dead<00:24:42.640> yet.

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You're<00:24:43.120> not<00:24:43.279> dead<00:24:43.440> yet.<00:24:44.480> better.

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Well,<00:24:45.360> yeah.<00:24:45.520> I'd<00:24:45.679> love<00:24:45.840> to<00:24:45.919> hear<00:24:46.080> like<00:24:46.240> what's<00:24:46.480> one<00:24:46.640> thing<00:24:46.720> that<00:24:46.880> you<00:24:47.039> would<00:24:47.200> love<00:24:47.279> to<00:24:47.440> leave<00:24:47.679> for<00:24:47.840> the<00:24:48.000> next<00:24:48.159> generation<00:24:49.120> and<00:24:49.360> it<00:24:49.600> can<00:24:49.679> be<00:24:49.760> for<00:24:49.919> the<00:24:50.240> young<00:24:50.480> professionals.

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It<00:24:51.120> could<00:24:51.200> be<00:24:51.279> for<00:24:51.440> CIOs,<00:24:52.000> other<00:24:52.240> technology<00:24:52.640> leaders<00:24:52.960> and<00:24:53.120> then<00:24:53.279> same<00:24:53.440> thing<00:24:53.520> for<00:24:53.679> Mark.

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I'd<00:24:54.000> love<00:24:54.080> to<00:24:54.159> hear<00:24:54.320> from<00:24:54.480> Mark's<00:24:54.720> perspective,<00:24:55.120> too.<00:24:55.600> Yeah.

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I<00:24:56.000> think<00:24:56.400> ultimately<00:24:57.840> when<00:24:58.480> the<00:24:58.720> future<00:24:59.039> is<00:24:59.279> going<00:24:59.360> to<00:24:59.440> ask<00:25:00.080> so<00:25:00.400> much<00:25:00.559> of<00:25:00.720> us,<00:25:01.600> I<00:25:01.919> actually<00:25:02.320> just<00:25:02.640> would<00:25:02.960> love<00:25:03.200> to<00:25:04.240> have

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my<00:25:04.720> last<00:25:05.120> word<00:25:05.840> be<00:25:06.000> an<00:25:06.240> appeal<00:25:06.559> to<00:25:06.799> kindness.

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Everything<00:25:08.400> that's<00:25:08.720> happening<00:25:09.039> has<00:25:09.279> taken<00:25:09.520> a<00:25:09.760> lot<00:25:09.840> out<00:25:10.080> of<00:25:10.240> us.

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the<00:25:11.760> overall<00:25:12.240> lack<00:25:12.480> of<00:25:12.640> civility,<00:25:13.279> the<00:25:13.440> decline<00:25:13.840> of<00:25:14.000> civility.

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I've<00:25:15.440> talked<00:25:15.679> to<00:25:16.320> probably<00:25:16.799> four<00:25:17.039> or<00:25:17.200> five<00:25:17.440> people<00:25:17.919> here<00:25:18.159> at<00:25:18.320> the<00:25:18.480> conference<00:25:18.720> who<00:25:18.960> have<00:25:19.120> been<00:25:19.279> promoted<00:25:20.000> and<00:25:20.240> I<00:25:20.400> asked<00:25:20.720> every<00:25:20.960> single<00:25:21.279> one,<00:25:21.679> "Are<00:25:22.000> you<00:25:22.159> still<00:25:22.400> doing

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your<00:25:22.799> old<00:25:22.960> job?"<00:25:23.200> And<00:25:23.360> they<00:25:23.520> all<00:25:23.679> just<00:25:23.919> laugh<00:25:24.080> and<00:25:24.320> say,<00:25:24.400> "Yeah."

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But<00:25:25.360> hey,<00:25:25.679> people<00:25:25.840> are<00:25:26.000> worn<00:25:26.240> out.<00:25:26.640> People<00:25:26.880> are<00:25:27.039> tired.

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It's<00:25:28.159> so<00:25:28.480> we've<00:25:28.720> got<00:25:29.360> a<00:25:29.600> declining,<00:25:30.640> we've<00:25:30.960> got<00:25:31.279> all<00:25:31.440> the<00:25:31.679> data<00:25:32.000> that<00:25:32.240> says<00:25:32.480> that<00:25:33.039> the<00:25:33.360> general<00:25:33.679> public<00:25:33.919> are<00:25:34.159> valuing<00:25:34.480> higher<00:25:34.720> education<00:25:35.279> less.

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We've<00:25:36.880> got<00:25:37.360> do<00:25:37.600> more<00:25:37.840> with<00:25:38.080> less.

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We've<00:25:38.960> got<00:25:39.520> lack<00:25:39.840> of<00:25:40.080> civility<00:25:40.720> in<00:25:40.960> a<00:25:41.600> polarized<00:25:42.320> environment<00:25:42.880> where<00:25:43.279> being<00:25:43.520> mean<00:25:43.919> becomes<00:25:44.400> almost<00:25:44.880> expected.

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And<00:25:45.807> yeah,<00:25:46.095> that<00:25:46.382> that<00:25:46.669> would<00:25:46.957> be<00:25:47.244> my<00:25:47.532> I<00:25:47.819> know<00:25:48.106> it<00:25:48.394> sounds<00:25:48.681> corny<00:25:48.968> or<00:25:49.256> namby-pamby,<00:25:49.543> but<00:25:49.831> I<00:25:50.118> think<00:25:50.405> we<00:25:50.693> all<00:25:50.980> do<00:25:51.267> mission<00:25:51.555> vision<00:25:51.842> values<00:25:52.130> and<00:25:52.417> we<00:25:52.704> talk<00:25:52.992> about<00:25:53.279> values

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and<00:25:54.400> often<00:25:54.799> times<00:25:54.960> they're<00:25:55.200> the<00:25:55.440> last<00:25:55.600> thing<00:25:55.760> we<00:25:56.080> talk<00:25:56.240> about.

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And<00:25:56.880> honestly,<00:25:57.279> I<00:25:57.520> think<00:25:57.679> the<00:25:57.919> values<00:25:58.400> now<00:25:58.640> are<00:25:59.440> rising<00:25:59.840> up<00:26:00.000> to<00:26:00.159> be<00:26:00.320> really<00:26:00.640> critical<00:26:01.679> determine<00:26:02.240> how<00:26:02.400> we<00:26:02.559> do<00:26:02.799> what<00:26:02.960> we<00:26:03.120> do<00:26:03.279> and<00:26:03.520> the<00:26:04.320> spirit<00:26:04.640> with

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that<00:26:05.367> we're<00:26:05.773> going<00:26:06.180> to<00:26:06.587> bring<00:26:06.993> to<00:26:07.400> this<00:26:07.807> serious<00:26:08.213> polycrisis<00:26:08.620> and<00:26:09.027> challenges<00:26:09.433> we<00:26:09.840> have.

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So<00:26:10.320> that's<00:26:10.560> what<00:26:10.800> I<00:26:11.040> got.<00:26:11.280> It's<00:26:11.520> a<00:26:11.760> polycrisis.

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I<00:26:12.400> love<00:26:12.480> that<00:26:12.799> Brian<00:26:13.120> Alexander<00:26:13.600> says<00:26:13.919> I<00:26:14.080> like<00:26:14.240> I<00:26:14.480> like<00:26:14.880> I<00:26:15.120> like<00:26:15.279> his<00:26:15.520> thinking<00:26:16.080> where<00:26:16.320> you<00:26:16.559> need<00:26:16.640> to<00:26:16.799> start<00:26:17.039> with<00:26:17.200> values<00:26:17.600> because<00:26:17.760> that's<00:26:18.000> the<00:26:18.159> only<00:26:18.320> way<00:26:18.400> you're

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going<00:26:18.640> to<00:26:18.880> survive.<00:26:19.600> It's<00:26:19.760> the<00:26:20.000> only<00:26:20.080> way<00:26:20.240> that<00:26:20.400> you're<00:26:20.559> going<00:26:20.720> to<00:26:21.360> respect<00:26:21.840> yourself<00:26:22.400> at<00:26:22.640> the<00:26:22.799> end<00:26:23.520> end<00:26:23.679> of<00:26:23.760> the<00:26:23.919> day.

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I<00:26:24.960> as<00:26:25.120> a<00:26:25.279> CIO<00:26:26.640> and<00:26:27.200> now<00:26:27.440> I<00:26:27.679> talk<00:26:27.840> to<00:26:28.400> CIOs<00:26:29.440> probably<00:26:29.679> talk<00:26:29.840> to<00:26:29.919> a<00:26:30.080> dozen<00:26:30.400> CIOs<00:26:31.120> and<00:26:32.240> I<00:26:32.480> listen<00:26:32.720> to

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their<00:26:33.039> issues.<00:26:33.360> I<00:26:33.520> listen<00:26:33.760> to<00:26:33.840> their<00:26:34.080> challenges<00:26:34.559> but<00:26:35.760> thank<00:26:36.080> God<00:26:36.320> I<00:26:36.480> don't<00:26:36.720> do<00:26:36.880> that<00:26:37.120> job<00:26:37.279> anymore<00:26:38.720> really<00:26:38.880> hard.

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It's<00:26:39.600> gotten<00:26:40.159> incredibly<00:26:41.039> hard<00:26:42.000> and<00:26:42.320> I<00:26:42.640> think<00:26:43.039> there's<00:26:43.279> a<00:26:43.440> breaking<00:26:43.760> point<00:26:44.240> and<00:26:44.400> I<00:26:44.640> hate<00:26:44.799> to<00:26:45.039> see<00:26:45.840> a<00:26:46.080> lot<00:26:46.240> of<00:26:46.400> really<00:26:46.960> people<00:26:49.360> times

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like<00:26:49.919> that.<00:26:50.480> It's<00:26:50.640> a<00:26:50.799> non-trivial<00:26:51.440> challenge.

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And<00:26:52.799> one<00:26:52.960> of<00:26:53.039> the<00:26:53.120> really<00:26:53.279> good<00:26:53.440> things<00:26:53.600> that<00:26:53.840> came<00:26:54.000> out<00:26:54.159> of<00:26:54.320> COVID<00:26:54.960> that<00:26:55.279> was<00:26:55.520> after<00:26:55.919> COVID<00:26:56.240> where<00:26:56.720> mental<00:26:57.120> health<00:26:57.279> and<00:26:57.520> wellness<00:26:57.919> became<00:26:58.240> a<00:26:58.400> thing<00:26:58.559> and<00:26:58.880> people<00:26:59.200> talked

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about<00:26:59.679> it<00:27:00.080> and<00:27:00.320> it<00:27:00.480> was<00:27:01.279> destigmatized<00:27:02.799> more<00:27:03.039> than<00:27:03.200> it<00:27:03.440> ever<00:27:03.600> had<00:27:03.840> been<00:27:04.000> and<00:27:04.240> I<00:27:04.400> those<00:27:04.640> are<00:27:04.799> all<00:27:05.440> and<00:27:05.600> the<00:27:05.760> idea<00:27:05.919> of<00:27:06.080> bringing<00:27:06.320> your<00:27:06.480> whole<00:27:06.720> self<00:27:06.880> to<00:27:07.039> work<00:27:07.279> and<00:27:07.440> being<00:27:08.000> those

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are<00:27:08.320> all<00:27:08.559> good<00:27:08.720> things<00:27:08.960> and<00:27:09.520> I<00:27:09.760> don't<00:27:09.919> think<00:27:10.000> they're<00:27:10.480> extra<00:27:11.200> extras<00:27:11.679> now.

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I<00:27:12.159> think<00:27:12.880> we<00:27:13.120> got<00:27:13.279> to<00:27:13.440> have<00:27:13.679> we<00:27:13.919> got<00:27:14.159> more<00:27:14.400> work<00:27:15.200> less<00:27:15.520> appreciation.

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There's<00:27:16.400> got<00:27:16.480> to<00:27:16.640> be<00:27:16.799> something<00:27:17.039> on<00:27:17.279> the<00:27:17.440> other<00:27:17.600> end<00:27:17.919> to<00:27:18.799> so<00:27:19.120> can<00:27:19.279> we<00:27:19.440> be<00:27:19.600> nice<00:27:19.840> to<00:27:20.000> each<00:27:20.159> other?

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Can<00:27:20.559> we<00:27:20.720> be<00:27:20.880> kind?<00:27:21.279> Can<00:27:21.440> we<00:27:22.159> can<00:27:22.400> we<00:27:22.799> focus<00:27:23.120> on<00:27:23.279> our<00:27:23.520> values?

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Yeah.<00:27:25.200> Well,<00:27:25.440> Brandy<00:27:25.760> Nanaki<00:27:26.320> came<00:27:26.480> to<00:27:26.640> our<00:27:26.880> very<00:27:27.120> first<00:27:27.360> AI<00:27:27.840> summit<00:27:28.559> and<00:27:28.799> she<00:27:29.120> said<00:27:29.600> cuz<00:27:29.919> this<00:27:30.240> was<00:27:30.480> a<00:27:30.720> few<00:27:30.880> years<00:27:31.039> ago<00:27:31.360> and<00:27:31.919> people<00:27:32.159> were<00:27:32.320> like,

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"What<00:27:32.720> should<00:27:32.799> we<00:27:32.960> be<00:27:33.120> doing<00:27:33.200> with<00:27:33.360> AI?<00:27:33.840> What<00:27:34.000> should<00:27:34.159> we<00:27:34.320> be<00:27:34.480> doing?"

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And<00:27:34.880> she<00:27:35.039> said,<00:27:35.520> "Start<00:27:36.000> with<00:27:36.159> your<00:27:36.400> values.

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If<00:27:37.279> you're<00:27:37.440> a<00:27:38.240> if<00:27:38.480> you're<00:27:38.640> a<00:27:38.799> campus<00:27:39.120> that<00:27:39.600> is<00:27:39.840> focused<00:27:40.159> on<00:27:40.480> sustainability,<00:27:41.279> then<00:27:42.080> look<00:27:42.320> hard<00:27:42.480> at<00:27:42.640> how<00:27:42.880> AI<00:27:43.279> can<00:27:43.440> help<00:27:43.600> with<00:27:43.760> that.

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If<00:27:44.240> you're,<00:27:44.480> you<00:27:44.640> know,<00:27:45.039> Yeah.<00:27:45.360> Lead<00:27:45.679> with<00:27:45.840> your<00:27:46.000> values.

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What<00:27:47.440> are<00:27:47.600> your<00:27:47.760> core<00:27:48.240> values<00:27:48.559> and<00:27:49.360> hold<00:27:49.520> yourself<00:27:49.840> accountable<00:27:50.240> for<00:27:50.400> it?

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Yeah.<00:27:51.120> Yeah.<00:27:51.600> Write<00:27:51.760> it<00:27:51.919> down<00:27:52.080> and<00:27:52.320> review<00:27:52.559> it.

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Look<00:27:53.440> in<00:27:53.679> the<00:27:53.760> mirror<00:27:54.080> every<00:27:54.399> few<00:27:54.559> months.<00:27:55.440> I<00:27:55.679> love<00:27:55.840> this<00:27:56.000> conversation.

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I<00:27:56.960> love<00:27:57.039> that<00:27:57.440> what<00:27:57.600> you<00:27:57.760> ended<00:27:58.000> on<00:27:58.320> Dan<00:27:58.640> ended<00:27:58.960> on<00:27:59.360> almost<00:27:59.919> identical<00:28:00.399> the<00:28:00.640> same<00:28:00.799> thing<00:28:01.039> about<00:28:01.520> kindness<00:28:02.000> and<00:28:02.640> techs<00:28:03.120> is<00:28:03.279> the<00:28:03.440> brand<00:28:03.600> but<00:28:03.840> my<00:28:04.080> business<00:28:04.240> is<00:28:04.559> Levity<00:28:05.039> Media

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LLC<00:28:06.320> for<00:28:06.559> lightness<00:28:06.880> and<00:28:07.120> fun.

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So<00:28:07.679> I<00:28:07.840> love<00:28:07.919> it.<00:28:08.159> Mark<00:28:08.399> knows<00:28:08.559> I<00:28:08.720> come<00:28:08.799> with<00:28:08.960> a<00:28:09.039> lot<00:28:09.120> of<00:28:09.200> energy.

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Seemed<00:28:10.240> that<00:28:10.480> Jo.<00:28:10.720> Yeah.<00:28:11.120> So<00:28:11.360> thank<00:28:11.520> you<00:28:11.600> for<00:28:11.760> coming<00:28:11.919> on<00:28:12.080> the<00:28:12.240> show.

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Always<00:28:13.049> welcome<00:28:13.378> back.<00:28:13.706> Of<00:28:14.035> course.<00:28:14.364> and<00:28:14.693> Mark,<00:28:15.021> always<00:28:15.350> a<00:28:15.679> pleasure.

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Love<00:28:16.240> having<00:28:16.480> you<00:28:16.559> on.